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paul
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 Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2003 9:28 am Post subject: Birmingham accent |
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From Ananova:
| Quote: | The Brummie accent is a lilting and melodious tone which impresses foreigners visiting Britain's second city, according to university research.
However, the study admitted that the city's brand of English has yet to find favour with Britons in other parts of the UK, who often confuse it with the dialect of the neighbouring Black Country.
The study by Birmingham University PhD student Steve Thorne also conceded that the stigmatisation of Birmingham English can adversely affect a Brummie's socialisation, health, liberty, education and career prospects, but insisted that its negative image was the result of misplaced snobbery.
"Contrary to popular belief, there is nothing wrong with Birmingham speech - Birmingham English is not an inferior variety, nor is it inherently ugly," Mr Thorne said.
"Non-native English speakers unaware of the social connotations which Brummie possesses for British English speakers do not discriminate on the same grounds, and this strongly suggests that attitudes towards the Birmingham dialect are influenced by factors such as social snobbery, negative media stereotyping, the poor public image of the city of Birmingham, and the north/south geographical and linguistic divide."
The study found that Brummie is considered to be a relatively new and "impure" dialect, but many of the features of contemporary Birmingham speech were used in Shakespeare's works and can be traced back to Anglo-Saxon settlers in the area in the sixth century.
The student's thesis also identified a number of reasons why Brummie is so heavily stigmatised, including the fact that Birmingham is neither northern nor southern, depriving its citizens of any "strong sense of socio-cultural or linguistic identity".
Birmingham's reputation as an impersonal mass of motorways, tower blocks, factories and underpasses was also cited as influencing people's dislike of the city's speech. |
Call me cynical but I can't help but think that Steve Thorne is probably from Birmingham and has a Brummie accent also...? Anyway, great to see the taxpayer's money being put to such wonderful use. 
Paul
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Hub-UK
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| Posted: Mon Sep 01, 2003 12:16 pm Post subject: |
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The research is flawed. They haven't taken the Japer Carrott factor into consieration.
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Steve Thorne
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| Posted: Mon Sep 15, 2003 10:28 pm Post subject: Birmingham accent |
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Re: "Call me cynical but I can't help but think that Steve Thorne is probably from Birmingham and has a Brummie accent also...?" Indeed I am from Birmingham and I also have a Birmingham accent, which I am very proud of. Is there something wrong with that? Are you suggesting that my research is in some way biased? I can assure you that it is not. I can also assure you that it is not considered particularly good practice to award postgraduate degrees for biased theses. Or are you sugesting that a person with a Birmingham accent is in some way not qualified to study attitudes towards their own speech? I'd say that a person with a Birmingham accent is eminently qualified to discuss prejudice against Birmingham speakers, wouldn't you? Or maybe you would prefer all future research to be carried out by white middle-class males with RP accents.
Re: "Anyway, great to see the taxpayer's money being put to such wonderful use." First of all, I am a taxpayer, and have been for many years. Secondly, my research has shown that prejudice against certain accents is so great that it can adversely affect a person's health, education, career prospects and even liberty. Now, you may not consider this to be serious issue, but I can assure you that many people do, and I could see no other way to bring this to the public's attention. If you can think of a better way, please try.
Call me cynical, but your comments do nothing but prove just how damaging and deeply ingrained such snobbish attitudes towards accents really are. Thank you for showing everybody that my research is accurate. |
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paul
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 8:43 am Post subject: Re: Birmingham accent |
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| Steve Thorne wrote: | | Re: "Call me cynical but I can't help but think that Steve Thorne is probably from Birmingham and has a Brummie accent also...?" Indeed I am from Birmingham and I also have a Birmingham accent, which I am very proud of. Is there something wrong with that? Are you suggesting that my research is in some way biased? I can assure you that it is not. |
Hello Steve... nice to see you stumbled on by. Of course, I'm probably speaking out of turn because I don't have all the facts at my disposal as you do. So apologies there. However, you clearly have an affinity to Birmingham and the Birmingham accent. How can you objectively determine that your upbringing and your roots do not in some way have an influence on your findings? What did you do to eliminate the possibility of this bias occurring? I'm from Manchester (and proud of it) and have a small degree of affinity towards Manchester. Since I have grown up with Mancunian accents all around me for the first 15 years of my life, it is not surprising that I do not find those accents alien to me. That's the same for you and Birmingham, I assume.
| Steve Thorne wrote: | | Re: "Anyway, great to see the taxpayer's money being put to such wonderful use." First of all, I am a taxpayer, and have been for many years. |
OK... but I don't quite follow the logic of that point. Just because you pay tax doesn't mean that your research is a justification for spending tax-payers money on it.
| Steve Thorne wrote: | | Secondly, my research has shown that prejudice against certain accents is so great that it can adversely affect a person's health, education, career prospects and even liberty. Now, you may not consider this to be serious issue, but I can assure you that many people do, and I could see no other way to bring this to the public's attention. If you can think of a better way, please try. |
OK, I can see this point. This seems to be much greater justification. My question was tongue-in-cheek but you (perhaps understandably) appear to have taken it as a personal attack.
| Steve Thorne wrote: | | Call me cynical, but your comments do nothing but prove just how damaging and deeply ingrained such snobbish attitudes towards accents really are. Thank you for showing everybody that my research is accurate. |
Ouch... 
In my eyes, how an accent is perceived is down to public perception, regardless of how much that might be influenced (wrongly or otherwise) by the media, etc. To be told by a researcher that:
| Quote: | | The Brummie accent is a lilting and melodious tone which impresses foreigners visiting Britain's second city, according to university research. |
...doesn't seem to right to me, if that's not the feeling it conjures up in us. I have never heard a foreigner to this country say they are impressed by the Birmingham accent, but I have heard people say things to the contrary. Surely it's the way individuals perceive an accent that is important, not how a researcher thinks it should be perceived.
Paul
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Hub-UK
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 12:14 pm Post subject: |
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Nothing like a good argument. 
| Quote: | The Brummie accent is a lilting and melodious tone which impresses foreigners visiting Britain's second city, according to university research.
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I think you are referring to the Welsh accent - who in their right mind could describe a Brummie accent in this way except a Brummie who has to be prejudiced about his own accent. There is no way someone can objectively research something that is personal to them.
I have no doubt there is some prejudice towards people with Brummie accents but no more than to many of the other Englisg dialects or to Welsh or Scottish accents.
The only comment I have come across over the years for a Brummie accent has always been derogatory but that does not mean prejudice. It is just a caase of scoring points by someone with a different accent.
There are enough of you with the accent for you not to feel isolated in the community!
There . . . I have my say! I'm Welsh by the way.
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DarrenC
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 1:26 pm Post subject: |
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Am I the only one who cringes when you hear someone talk on the TV who has the same accent as you.
I was watching Ibiza Uncovered the other week and heard a Leeds lad talk.. it made me cringe!
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Hub-UK
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Steve Thorne
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 7:59 pm Post subject: Brummie |
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Re: "What did you do to eliminate the possibility of this bias occurring?" I played a selection of English accents to a group of native English speakers and a group of non-native English speakers. The non-native English speakers had only just arrived in England, had never travelled to England before and so had less knowledge of the social connotations which accents such as Brummie have for native English speakers. The native English speakers rated the Brummie accent as the least appealing. The most popular reason given was because of its inherent ugliness, but also because it sounded 'thick' and 'miserable'. The non-native speakers rated it as the third most attractive accent. Not one of the non-native speakers said that the Brummie accent sounded 'ugly', 'thick', or 'miserable'. Most used positive adjectives such as 'beautiful', 'melodic', 'lilting' and even 'sexy' to describe it. This study replicates a number of other sociolinguistic studies which have also indicated that no accent, dialect or language is inherently ugly, so my findings can hardly be biased.
Re: "Just because you pay tax doesn't mean that your research is a justification for spending tax-payers money on it." I funded the research out of my own pocket, but I wouldn't have a problem with my money being spent on research which furthers human knowledge in any way. What's your problem?
Re: "The Brummie accent is a lilting and melodious tone which impresses foreigners visiting Britain's second city, according to university research." You obviously haven't read my research. This is taken from a newspaper or internet article. I did not write it.
Re: "Surely it's the way individuals perceive an accent that is important, not how a researcher thinks it should be perceived. " As I make quite clear above and in my doctoral thesis, I am not in the business of telling people how accents should be perceived. I am merely pointing out the vast discrepancy between, as you yourself put it, "the way [native and non-native] individuals perceive an accent" in the hope that this will then lead people to think a little before they make such crass comments as: "Who in their right mind could describe a Brummie accent in this way except a Brummie who has to be prejudiced about his own accent?"
Re: "The only comment I have come across over the years for a Brummie accent has always been derogatory but that does not mean prejudice." My research indicates otherwise, I'm afraid.
Re: "There are enough of you with the accent for you not to feel isolated in the community!" Who said that Brummies feel isolated? I most certainly did not. Brummies are as proud of their city and accent as Scousers, Cockneys, Geordies, Glaswegians and Mancunians are of theirs, and rightly so. |
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paul
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 9:34 pm Post subject: Re: Brummie |
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Hi Steve
Glad you responded. First, a small point... it's easier to read other people's posts if you can easily see who is saying what. You can do this by putting [ quote ] and [ /quote ] (remove the spaces) or [ quote="Steve Thorne" ] and [ /quote ] around the relevant pieces of text. It just helps myself and others to follow the thread.
| Steve Thorne wrote: | | Re: "What did you do to eliminate the possibility of this bias occurring?" I played a selection of English accents to a group of native English speakers and a group of non-native English speakers. The non-native English speakers had only just arrived in England, had never travelled to England before and so had less knowledge of the social connotations which accents such as Brummie have for native English speakers. The native English speakers rated the Brummie accent as the least appealing. |
I'd be curious to know the size of the sample and how you could be sure of people's prior knowledge of Brummie or other accents. Even if the sample was large, and even if you could be sure of individuals' backgrounds, how can you be sure that your interpretation of what they say is not in some way influenced by your own background? Was your research inductive or deductive? You imply you are proud of your city and accent; it would be human nature for you to show this in your findings and your interpretation of subjective opinions.
| Steve Thorne wrote: | | The non-native speakers rated it as the third most attractive accent. |
How many accents did they have to choose from? How do you know if the people were not influenced by other aspects of someone's voice rather than accent - intonation, etc. People with the same accent can sound very different, too, of course.
| Steve Thorne wrote: | | Most used positive adjectives such as 'beautiful', 'melodic', 'lilting' and even 'sexy' to describe it. |
One of the most used adjectives to describe Brummie is 'sexy'... now you're just having a laugh, aren't you?! 
| Steve Thorne wrote: | | Re: "The Brummie accent is a lilting and melodious tone which impresses foreigners visiting Britain's second city, according to university research." You obviously haven't read my research. This is taken from a newspaper or internet article. I did not write it. |
I have already conceded that. I am curious to know how it reached the press. By my experience, this thing doesn't normally happen without the issue of a press release. Just curious, but did you or someone else issue a press release about your findings, resulting in this coverage?
Paul
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Hub-UK
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| Posted: Tue Sep 16, 2003 10:13 pm Post subject: |
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| Quote: | The non-native speakers rated it as the third most attractive accent. Not one of the non-native speakers said that the Brummie accent sounded 'ugly', 'thick', or 'miserable'. Most used positive adjectives such as 'beautiful', 'melodic', 'lilting' and even 'sexy' to describe it. This study replicates a number of other sociolinguistic studies which have also indicated that no accent, dialect or language is inherently ugly, so my findings can hardly be biased.
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Just goes to show how little foreigners know!
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Emilie
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 7:26 am Post subject: Re: Birmingham accent |
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| paul wrote: | | Anyway, great to see the taxpayer's money being put to such wonderful use. |
Interesting the way people think tax payer money should only be used for
research on better medicines, better trains, finances. They're not
interested in all the more "social" stuff, fundamental rights, equal
opportunities, etc. as if it wasn't important to their happiness. |
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Emilie
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 8:01 am Post subject: Re: Brummie |
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| paul wrote: | | I'd be curious to know the size of the sample and how you could be sure of people's prior knowledge of Brummie or other accents. |
| paul wrote: |
how can you be sure that your interpretation of what they say is not in some way influenced by your own background? |
| paul wrote: |
How many accents did they have to choose from?
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I'd think all your questionning comes from bad knowledge of what a PhD Thesis is all about. Although none could be perfect, care is normally taken by the university and by examinors (internal and external) that the research's been carried out in a scientific manner and that it's fairly bombproof.
Of course this is not always enough to ensure a later thesis will be made that contradicts an earlier one. In this case, I guess it could be yours? However it could be a good idea to read Steve's thesis before to engage in such a challenge, or before to ask him to rewrite it for us on this forum.
I haven't read it myself, and I'm not sure I will, as I don't have the ambition of demolishing every single piece of research that challenges my a prioris.
And you could call me biased as I live in Birmingham (although my french accent may get me off the hook?).
When I arrived in Birmingham, I would not have said the accent was "sexy" because that's not a word I often use. But I've heard British people use this word to describe other british accents that didn't seem more or less sexy than Birmingham accent.
But I did like the accent right from the start. Certainly, I like it even more now and certainly I'm now biased: because it's been a real pleasure to meet the friendly and welcoming people of Birmingham. |
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paul
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 8:22 am Post subject: Re: Brummie |
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| Emilie wrote: | | I'd think all your questionning comes from bad knowledge of what a PhD Thesis is all about. |
Oh, would you now...? 
They are not unreasonable questions to ask, and I'm sure Steve could answer them easily. When someone comes up with findings that are perhaps different to those expected, it is not unreasonable to make enquiries about the methodology that gave rise to those findings.
Paul
PS - Am I right in assuming you're a friend or colleague of Steve's?
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 8:27 am Post subject: |
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| Quote: | | When I arrived in Birmingham, I would not have said the accent was "sexy" because that's not a word I often use. But I've heard British people use this word to describe other british accents that didn't seem more or less sexy than Birmingham accent. |
What a sheltered life I must have lived. I have never heard anyone in the UK describe any of our accents as sexy nor have I read such a description in the press or seen anything on TV.
Perhaps I am sexy after all
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Emilie
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| Posted: Wed Sep 17, 2003 9:53 am Post subject: Re: Brummie |
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| paul wrote: | | PS - Am I right in assuming you're a friend or colleague of Steve's? |
You're wrong. But I was sure you'd ask.
Although I have exchanged some emails with him the past 2 days after reading some of the reactions to his work on the internet, I don't think we're "friends" and certainly not colleagues.
I've sometimes thought of how empty Internet forums would be if there wasn't always a guy who wants to know everything about anybody, frequentations, CV, date of birth and so on, before to accept any word of criticism or wisdom (or rather dismiss it, as Internet is too virtual a world to ever get to any level of certainty that could satisfy the sceptics). |
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